Petrarchive – pagans, paganism

The Baltics is the only part of Europe I could see sincerely renouncing Christianity for Paganism. Otherwise, it's as dead as disco.

I'm not very well versed in theology but do you see any parallels between paganism and secularism with regard to what you're talking about, but with a sort of animism applied to meta ideas about human systems of organization rather than animals?

You did answer your question, in my mind. It is not possible. There is no continuity, dooming any attempt at reviving paganism to remain LARP forever. And more importantly the style of thinking that is prerequisite here is no longer available to vast majority of us at the present. Paganism breathed its last as a mass phenomenon with romanticism, which was still at the core LARP, but at least it had some success reigniting the emotions and mentality adjacent to the image of pagan societies in the Europe, and could draw from last inheritors of these practises at times.
Would it be liberating? In the short term, for sure, but I do not think such change in thinking is even possible in the scale of a single lifetime.

>>8777
I knew a lithuanian guy who said they still had festivals at midsummer where teenagers would go into the woods and drink and shag each other. Sounded like a real bacchanal.

But yeah I concur with >>8779 that European paganism basically cannot escape the inherent LARPiness of being defined in opposition to the Christian-atheistic mainstream. It's impossible not to laugh when you hear modern pagans going on about their 'religions'. Ok so you believe in Thor and Odin and Loki. Ok. Do you. Do you really. lmao. lmao. I don't believe you.

I know someone who actually, truly believes in the magical/supernatural/whatever you wanna call it. she's very sweet but may actually have schizophrenia. but maybe not because she is able to lead a normal life and she is definitely, definitely not on meds for any mental health thing.
last I spoke to her, she was regularly "communicating" with an entity that "knew things" and "protected her". like it would tell her who she shouldn't hang out with and give her lottery numbers

>>8777
I don't know anything about the "latent" paganism of various cultures (though I am interested in it), that doesn't surprise me though lol. I wouldn't want to really "bring it back" en masse, I agree it's dead and revival doesn't work except in a synthetic way (that is, the original is always gone and the only way something is ever "brought back" is via some sort of nostalgic "recuperation").

>>8778
Not exactly, but I'm interested in what you're saying. Are you referring to a kind of Revolutionary French "raising" of concepts? a la "Cult of Reason"? Except, I assume you mean that it is occurring in a subconscious, descriptive kind of way, rather than a literal promotion by Robespierre.

>>8779
>Paganism breathed its last as a mass phenomenon with romanticism...
See, this is interesting, because I agree that paganism seems to have affects beyond its real "lifespan". And that's the only way it could conceivably (to me) have a revival now, in a sort of worship of its qualities rather than its actual divinity (or perception thereof). I can't say I know that in-depth much about the Romantics specifically, though I know thematically much of their work centered on a sort of return to pre-Christian or folk topics and themes.

>but I do not think such change in thinking is even possible in the scale of a single lifetime.
True, and I don't know what exactly a mass change in thinking or culture would look like, at least in atomized Western society.

>>8780
>I knew a lithuanian guy who said they still had festivals at midsummer ...
In a way, this is kind of what I am thinking about when I think of a pagan revival. Not necessarily the "true to life" bringing back of gods worship, animal (or even human) sacrifice, and such, but an inversion of values and norms. In a way, I am unsure how to do one without the other. However, you're right in your second paragraph. The neo-Pagans, especially those who are organized, are amusing at best. And their motivations seem, as you say, to be mainly just contrarian reaction towards Christianity/Christian culture. I don't think that is a solid foundation, if one at all. Also, their general tendencies are embarrassing. see also: "witches" and Wicca.

>>8781
Yeah, I was thinking after making this post, that I have known some people who veer individually (and seemingly naturally, not converted or intentional) towards the magical (and that overlaps with either a perception of or a an actual interest in the pagan). Also, some people in their personality seem to just correspond with a natural nature worship. It is interesting, or even funny, to me, that something like this:

>she was regularly "communicating" with an entity that "knew things" and "protected her".

is obviously a marker for insanity (or at least an "off-ness"), though in some circles this is also perfectly fine way of thinking. Probably your last sentence is the damning statement. People "talk" to their guardian angels to feel a sense of relief or justice, but we find it unconvincing or strange to think of gaining material things from immaterial beings.

In some way, it does make me think the base definition of all psychological "trouble" is "this is something harmful or seen as wrong", and if it's not harmful or unacceptable, then I don't know exactly "what" it is.

it's capable of making a comeback, although not because of Paganism itself but rather the failures of Christian Universalism. Ironically enough, Universalism only kind of works in a world where transportation and communication is expensive which incentivizes staying with your own kin. Now we live in a world where high-trust boomers are constantly hoodwinked by indians. There is, and already has been, a great sizing down of politics and religion. Protestants will stick to Protestants, Catholics to Catholics, Pagans to Pagans, Marxists to Marxists, and whatever other label you can imagine big or small. This has arguably always been the case, but I get the impression that this sort of behavior is going to become much more prolific and visceral.

^ I forgot to add something. Most people who larp as Pagan are, well, larping. This is in response to a genuine failure of our morality (we punish too little and trust too much) but most people want aesthetics that will fit their intuitions, now whether they believe it? That's another story. I have an uncle who frequently reposts Hitler memes but is still really a conservative who just appropriates the aesthetics of the Nazis, in reality he hasn't changed much as far as I'm aware.

"Paganism" (or rather, non-monotheistic religion) is alive and well in non-white communities. What you all are discussing seems to be a white people problem.

>>8800
This is true. I suppose, yes, I was pretty narrowly considering only the European and descended world. I don't hear much about the Hindus or Buddhists much in my neck of the woods, though there are quite a few of the "New Age" types, who seem to be doing some sort of orientalist version of the "East". I won't speak with any authority on the non-monotheism outside of the West, because frankly I don't know much about it, though I'm not opposed to it and would like to learn more.

The last non-larping western pagan tradition died after Anton Long/David Myatt disbanded the original O9A. If you read NOUS and some of the original MSS, you'll be surprised by how much it formed a genuine esoteric metaphysics mixing the alchemical tradition with the concept of the acausal, a westernization of something like chi. It's a self-described "satanic" tradition, but only in the narrow definition of being against "magian" (Christian) spirituality; the word satan literally comes from the Hebrew word adversary.

Everything good has to come to an end. Eventually, being first co-opted by Nazis (Attomwaffen) and then by the LARP'ers (ToB), and then by groomers and pedos (796/Misanthropes), the O9A became shorthand for edgy faggots on the internet.

We need to understand that paganism is NOT a religion. "Paganus" is literally "rural country person". Its a state of mind that you view the world through with whatever common folk traditions and legends within your area.
While there were pagan cities with the cult of Jupiter Optimus Maximus in Rome, the Eleusinian Mysteries in Greece, the Druidic orders in Gaul. It is important to note the foundation of the cities were at one point small villages too.
Home's Iliad and Odyssey are exactly this for greeks and were written down as early as 700-500BCE. Many of the rulers throughout Europe coveted it, similar to how the Christian bible is today. But literacy was still typically only for the upper class, and there was no push to make everyone literally believe it (there was no evangelization).
Plato's Republic was written around 400BCE and it gives us the idea of 'The Noble Lie' (a foundational myth intended to ensure social harmony and civic loyalty). One of the main things it specifies is the need for the lie to appear as ANCIENT, thus making the societal hierarchy seem natural, divine, and unchangeable rather than a recent, manipulative invention. Virgil's Aeneid was written around 100BCE and took a lot from homer's work, but more importantly, it utilizes plato's noble lie at its core... This is where we get the term Greco-Roman. The foundation of the 'western world'. It is still relevant, and we still have influence from it today, which I will elaborate on later.
So in a way, paganism never died.

>Judaism
The Long story short which is not within this post is that judaism OT is also utilizing plato's noble lie and was only written down ~ 400BCE. The earliest records of anyone using a name within the torah is only around 300BCE (Gad Barnea, professor at the University of Haifa, admits as much). The mythical state of israel/atlantis with their king david/atlas. One can talk about how they have done telephone for 500 years before writing their religious myth down, but this must also be applied to the pagan myths as well. Academically, this is only applied for israel and their oral tradition. For example, anyone stating judaism is older than Homer is arguing in bad faith and more than likely trying to climb some career ladder.
I can talk about this later more thoroughly, but it's beside the point of this post.

Christianity's New testament wasn't written down until 100 AD and at this time it was exclusively a Jewish sect. Christianity saw a need to reform all jews to refocus on the torah (OT). One jew in particular (Paul/Saul) is the primary author of the NT (writing 13/27 books in it). It is important to note that Paul/Saul was initially AGAINST christians and even participated in the first 'official' killing of a christian (Saint stephen). The interesting change that paul did was he sought to evangelize the whole WORLD not just the jews. That is where you get the birth of universalism within the west.

One should also question the motives of someone who goes from being one of the primary oppositional figures of something to the most fervent leader of it later.
But I digress.

>Instituting Christianity
'Paganism' was being met with more and more literate people, many of them making rationalistic and literal arguments against it. Greek paganism switches their foundational myths with christianity at some point.
Roman christians were an exclusive jewish culture of a BLM-style iconoclasm that gets adopted by the state in 300AD. This was a top-down instituting of christianity by a powerful lobby of reformed jews.
In a way, the unholy alliance seen between zionist christians and jews is at the core of roman christianity.
Look no further than Cicero's famous quote "how numerous this clique is, how they stick together and what power they exercise through their unions" said in 60BCE referring to jews. There are many more quotes like that not just within rome but also greece.
If you look at how Christianity spread initially, it was very violent, but towards the end, you start to see an appropriation of pagan symbols rather than a destruction of them. Many aspects of Christianity maintain a pagan corpus with a veneer of jewish/Christian identity.

>Future of paganism
Now for the revival you speak of... you're talking about the old stories of your people. Well many are lost, and if they're found by any institutions, they will more than likely be destroyed. The one thing they can't destroy is your mind and imagination. The myths and stories come from your people, and you represent an unbreakable link as a descendant of your ancestors. The myth is never truly lost as long as you can imagine what it is.
The veneer of christainity needs to be lifted from its pagan roots. That is where your myth and legends are preserved. Read the bible not as a christian, but as an investigator. Try and find nuggets of paganism preserved within them. Some of the first depictions of a halo are with perseus, achilles, and helois. Many gods died and resurrected.

So the core of a 'pagan revival' is NOT as much an intellectual endeavor. There are many internet pagans (an oxymoron). But again, to reiterate my initial point.
"Paganus" is literally "rural country person." Leave the cities for your revival.

>"Watch", he is said to have declared, "so that you know how cheap the body is to men who have their eye on great glory". Mucius thrust his right hand into a fire which was lit for sacrifice and held it there without giving any indication of pain. Porsena was shocked at the youth's bravery, and dismissed him from the Etruscan camp, free to return to Rome, saying "Go back, since you do more harm to yourself than me".
>>9378
O9A was ran by feds

>>9658
I didn't know about the etymological roots of "pagan", but that is exactly what I'm (OP) interested in. Specifically, paganism as worldview, rather than assortment of myths and "beliefs" sewed together in archaeological hindsight. I guess I'm not surprised that the urbanization / city-rural divide plays a strong part in that; it seems to be something which follows man throughout history and his historical development.

>Many aspects of Christianity maintain a pagan corpus with a veneer of jewish/Christian identity.
Something I considered only after making this thread is the commingling which ensued in the New World, with (American) Indian and Christians. There is a great difference in the ways the Anglo Protestants and the Spanish Catholics decided to convert/impress the natives (mostly a matter of whether to assimilate or not), and the latter often led to the existence of cultures which were nominally Catholic and functionally pagan. In the Southwest, which is where I am mainly familiar with this, the Catholic churches are filled with very interestingly filled with recapitulations of biblical scenes through a decidedly Indian style. Of course, this is also an area where there are actually Indians who still practice their indigenous religions in a virtually unbroken chain, so I assume that has had an impact on the Church's attempts to bring them into the fold.

>you represent an unbreakable link as a descendant of your ancestors. The myth is never truly lost as long as you can imagine what it is.
I was just reading Freud's Moses and Monotheism, and he makes a similar argument. That myth essentially always stays with a culture and that a culture will always bring forth the repressed myth in new ways. Of course, he's not making a prescriptive argument or statement, but describing a kind of "progression". Naturally though he folds together all of belief, whether pagan or Christian, into "that which brings forth neuroses".

>Watch", he is said to have declared...
Tacitus?

A true Paganism requires honesty. Strip away the fictions, the mythologies (Abrahamic, Hellenic, Indian and otherwise), and truly study what is left. Find spirituality in the truth.

>>9744
Interesting idea, are you ascribing a "true" paganism to something like Platonism/Neoplatonism?

>>9682
I didn't know about the etymological roots of "pagan", but that is exactly what I'm (OP) interested in. Specifically, paganism as worldview, rather than assortment of myths and "beliefs" sewed together in archaeological hindsight. I guess I'm not surprised that the urbanization / city-rural divide plays a strong part in that; it seems to be something which follows man throughout history and his historical development.
There's an etymology thread up right now. It's garbage though.
But I will say, (as someone who is very interested in linguistics/phonetics), the real key to understanding the past is to understand the old words that we still use today and look at their cognates. Words like God, Deity, Spirit..etc. Are all wrapped in almost obscurity and now carry different meanings (albeit similar). And the different meanings make all the world of difference once you consider this is the foundation of religious ideas. Take 'God' for example.
The root is germanic, has many mutative forms even phonetics shift from languages meaning different things as well.
german gott, swedish gudd, english god, icelandic guð (the ð is proceeds with 'eth') and think about gothi/goði(priest but much more than that if you read). So, who are 'good' 'goths' from 'gotland' and their cousins the 'geats'? No, I'm not just rhyming words. If not having identical meanings they are shared roots.
'deity' is a whole other can of warms and is even older..
Also, lets not jump to conclusions about my beliefs just for pointing out the root words for 'god' in modern english language.
Maybe this addresses your 'separation between the spiritual and the material' you had in the OP to a degree.
>great difference in the ways the Anglo Protestants and the Spanish Catholics decided to convert/impress the natives (mostly a matter of whether to assimilate or not)
Look into the celtic deity "esus". God of what?
>Sacrifices.
Oh and how did he like his sacrifices?
>'in particular, that Esus's victims were suspended from a tree and bloodily dismembered. '
Hmmm... Also,
Look at the origins of the celtic cross (and how much older is it than christianity). Turns out the irish specifically (but also some celts) had their own holy communion and eucharist BEFORE christianity.
Again, these are things for you to investigate yourself.
>Freud
In my humble opinion...pop-culture quack. Jung is more my alignment.

>>9754
Missed green texting the first part of the post.
> didn't know about the etymological roots of "pagan", but that is exactly what I'm (OP) interested in. Specifically, paganism as worldview, rather than assortment of myths and "beliefs" sewed together in archaeological hindsight. I guess I'm not surprised that the urbanization / city-rural divide plays a strong part in that; it seems to be something which follows man throughout history and his historical development.
But I will say, (as someone who is very interested in linguistics/phonetics), the real key to understanding the past is to understand the old words that we still use today and look at their cognates. Words like God, Deity, Spirit..etc. Are all wrapped in almost obscurity and now carry different meanings (albeit similar). And the different meanings make all the world of difference once you consider this is the foundation of religious ideas. Take 'God' for example.
The root is germanic, has many mutative forms even phonetics shift from languages meaning different things as well.
german gott, swedish gudd, english god, icelandic guð (the ð is proceeds with 'eth') and think about gothi/goði(priest but much more than that if you read). So, who are 'good' 'goths' from 'gotland' and their cousins the 'geats'? No, I'm not just rhyming words. If not having identical meanings they are shared roots.
'deity' is a whole other can of warms and is even older..
Also, lets not jump to conclusions about my beliefs just for pointing out the root words for 'god' in modern english language.
Maybe this addresses your 'separation between the spiritual and the material' you had in the OP to a degree.

>>9747

The way I see it is that myths and stories, whether it’s Hindu mythology or the Middle Eastern mythos shared by the Abrahamic religions or the myths of the Aztecs, are all fictional. Sure there probably was a Christ and a Krishna but the narratives we know about them are largely fictional. The stories of miracles and fantasies of afterlife are all made up, with zero evidence or experimental/scientific support.

So, in order to find the real truth and create a spirituality grounded in reality and not fiction, we need to do away with the myths. To the extent that we can, that is, for the myths are too embedded in our culture to be free of. Anyway, things like the study of ecology and physics, understanding the place of the human being in the world web and in the wider universe, that’s what the neopagans need to do. I’d say it’s an animism of sorts.

>The only dead culture is one not remembered
From Brute Norse, which you might find interesting.

>>9903
just doing the scientific method but calling it neopaganism sounds incredibly pointless tbh

>9903
FTFY
>So, in order to find the 'real' truth and create a spirituality grounded in LITERALISM and not METAPHORS
So many people consider themself non-christian or even atheist/agnostic, when really a better label would be 'unaware abrahamist'.
A series of questions for you to ponder:
Is your mind so small you can't comprehend abstraction?
What do you think "Divine Madness" was exactly?
Do you ever look in the mirror?
Is there a reflection when you look in a mirror?

>>9944 for >>9903

>>9928
googled it, it seems kind of interesting and kind of silly, can you sell me on this? interesting in that i like its topic, but silly in that it seems kind of like autistic redditor larp.

even in baltics, the whole thing is dead. those who are earnestly trying to revive are chasing the ghosts of the pasts.

>>8718
>she was regularly "communicating" with an entity that "knew things" and "protected her". like it would tell her who she shouldn't hang out with and give her lottery

What’s her bmi

As a Slav, I think Slavic ‘paganism’ is obnoxious and LARPy, and since the Romantic period, people have been looking for remnants of paganism in folk traditions with little evidence for their pagan origin. Just because the feast of the Assumption is celebrated as Our Lady of the Herbs and women take herbs and flowers to churches to get them blessed doesn’t mean, as people often claim, that “it’s a remnant of pagan rituals to the goddess Devana who was supplanted by Mary”, it just means that the feast is in August soon before harvest and there are many herbs available for picking. The custom of throwing water on girls on Easter Monday isn’t a “pagan fertility rite”. It’s just an excuse for boys to harass and annoy the girls they like, and that’s probably why it was invented in the first place. The water throwing might as well be a reference to baptismal water and the rite of aspersion. Various folk embroideries are claimed to represent goddesses and trees of life, disregarding that the floral embroidery associated with the Catholic parts of Eastern Europe is a folk interpretation of Baroque ecclesiastical embroidery. Many other folk customs are reinvented as ‘surviving pagan traditions’ even though they were practiced by deeply Christian peasants and none of them involved any worship of pagan gods, which is what an actual pagan tradition would involve. All accounts of pre-Christian Slavic religion can been written by Christian clergy and can be regarded as fictional, and no one even knows what gods the Slavs worshipped. Supposed reconstructions of these gods made by neopagans are obviously made up and you could as well worship the Witcher. Not to mention that none of these neo-pagans are interested in restoring pre-Christian practices like polygamy, which suggests they are far more influenced by the ‘foreign religion’ of Christianity that they admit.

>>10478
>well worship the Witcher
Well that's the thing. Christianity is just a book club no different than Harry Potter.
Its no different than any book, but some people deify one more over the other. This is done by appealing to authority (Or which one is deemed older). If we're operating under that assumption shouldn't we all be looking into sumerian Enki or even egyptian Ra?

Either way, yes watching movies and playing video games is a form of worship. But people aren't ready for that conversation because they have to admit they are not what they think they are.

>>10547

I didn't know much about christianity but whatever little i did know about it was because of the American shows and movies I had watched.
my knowledge of how old most religions are, of most historical events itself is kind of abysmal. i had assumed that all mainstream religions must be old as civilisation itself.

then one day I'm watching I, Claudius and I discover that Caesar was before Christ. in that moment any mysticism Christianity had held was gone for me. lol

not that it makes it worse that any other religion, all of them are bogus.

>>10553
>Caesar was before Christ
Caesar is more real than christ too. We can confirm he actually existed and its not wrapped in hyperbolic metaphor and he did actually great things. (not that he's a good person, but that he asserted his willpower). Only can be measured beside alexander, genghis and maybe napolean. but jesus? jesus is one of many different prophets claiming to foresee the future (which interestingly didn't write the book that is worshiped by his followers). So he's more of a character than an actual person.

But I digress, thats neither here or there.